Red Bull Music Academy, Rome 2004

2004-03-02
Session Transcript:
Tony Dawsey
Red Bull Music Academy, Rome 2004
The video stream for this lecture can be watched here.

Waiting on the couch is the guy that people like DJ Premier and Jay-Z (and many, many others) look up to when they need perfect sound for their records: New York's Masterdisk mastering engineer Tony Dawsey. We spent hours with him, talking about frequencies, analog versus digital, half-inch tapes and studio monitors. We all took advantage of his kindness and honesty, trying to catch any possible secret from the master of mastering (ah, ah). Through Jeff Mao's wise questions and Dawsey’s sharp and on-point answers we discovered the wonder of the one inch tape (unfortunately too expensive for most of us...) or the way people like Reggie Noble (aka Redman) and DJ Premier keep him locked in the studio 'till late at night to supervise smaller details. But mostly we found out once and for all that mastering is just the "icing on the cake", not a magical process through which you can adjust recording or mixing mistakes. In order to be fully understood, Tony played two of his works with opposite results: Jay-Z's The Dynasty on one side and Kid Rock's Devil Without A Cause on the other. At the end of the session, Tony leaves with nothing but good things to say about the tracks that have been made right here at the Rome Academy:
»I think you should release a few tracks every year from the Academy. I'd be willing to master it for nothing, I'd do it for the love, for letting me come in here and vibe with you. I think you all got a wonderful thing going on, you got people who are dedicated and want to do this. You should do this more often!«

RBMA: »Please welcome Mr. Tony Dawsey.«

Tony Dawsey: »Thank you, thank you, I appreciate it, thank you.«

RBMA: »So Tony, your field, your profession, is sound mastering. If I was from outer space and I came down and saw your name on a record, how would you explain in the most fundamental terms to me what it is that you do? How come your name is everywhere? What do you do?«

Tony Dawsey: »Well, to me mastering is like icing on the cake. I say that to quite a few people because it’s something that is very understandable. If you ever had some cake before, a little icing on it, if it’s a good cake, makes it that much better. And that’s what we do in the mastering stage. I’ll take what people give me and I try to make it a little bit better. A little sound embed all across the board. It’s a craft, it takes a lot of time. For years, I worked at being where I’m at. It’s not something that happens overnight, so to speak.«

RBMA: »Now, you work at Masterdisk. What are some of the other well-known mastering houses in New York along with Masterdisk that people might be familiar with?«

Tony Dawsey: »Definitely, Sterling Sound. They are our competition, there is a lot of them now. With the ProTools machine coming along, there is a lot of them who opened up during the last few years. But in New York, you have Sterling Sound, Masterdisk, The Hit Factory, Absolute Audio. There is a quite few of them, really quite a few of them. There is also a lot of them who have a ProTools rig and call themselves mastering studio. There is quite a few of them also, they range from all over the place. You have the low-budget ones as well as the high-end stuff. Masterdisk like to think that they’re one of the best. There are about six engineers that work there along with myself and a wide range of music.«

RBMA: »Who are some of the other guys who work over there?«

Tony Dawsey: »Howie Weinberg who does a lot of stuff like Nirvana and all that type of stuff, the Beastie Boys. There is also Andy VanDette. There is Dave Kutch there now. Lately, unfortunately, we had one room that has been rotating with a lot of engineers. For a while, it was Leon Zervos, Greg Kalbee. We once had Bob Ludwig, who is still regarded as one of the better mastering engineers out there. He left and opened up his own place up in Maine. «

RBMA: »And he is still working there, he is doing stuff like Bruce Springsteen.«

Tony Dawsey: »He is doing a lot of big, big rock stuff. People that have a budget when they want to master records.«

RBMA: »Right. Well, I think your story is pretty interesting and how you got into this. Could you jump into that? You’ve been a music fan your whole life, but it wasn’t like being a sound engineer was your goal from the start, right? So, maybe you could tell everybody how you got started in the business?«

Tony Dawsey: »It’s been an interesting journey, I guess. I didn’t start out wanting to be a mastering engineer or engineer, period. At this stage of my life, I thought I’d be a photographer, really. That’s what I wanted to do when I left high school to get into advertising or fashion photography.

But what happened is, I got a job at Masterdisk as a messenger or mail room person to support me through photography school. And a month later they showed me how to do things in the music world. Back then in the day - I’ve been there for 24 years now, I started in 1980 – back then, quarter-inch tape copies were the standard way to make cassettes from. And that’s what I started doing way back then. Making cassettes, reel to reel tapes and so on. One thing led to another. I put the camera down and I got involved in the mastering end of the business.«

RBMA: »So that is pretty remarkable, starting in the mail room and now you got your own room at Masterdisk. You’ve been there for 20+ years. From doing the tape copies, how did it grasp as far as you learned the ropes and everything?«

Tony Dawsey: »Well, at first I want to say that I’m a very lucky and blessed man. I want that to be known. Music has always been a big part of my life. Always. From way, way back. As a kid, my mum used to go to work at like midnight and she would turn the radio on and leave it on in the house. So, not only did I go to bed to music, I woke up to music. As a young man - growing up as an 11, 12-year old – the group of guys I hung with, what we did was listen to music. We’d go to each other’s house and just play music.«

RBMA: »You grew up in New York?«

Tony Dawsey: »I grew up in New York, Spanish Harlem. Back then, records were only four dollars. So, me and the group of guys I grew up with, that’s what we did. We got money – I used to work at a paper route as an 11-year old and we’d go downtown and buy records for four dollars. All types of music: Hamilton Bohannon and James Brown, The Stylistics, Parliament/Funkadelic – all that type of stuff. Records were cheap and that’s what we did. Listen to music, music all day and all night. I ended up leaving New York City and went to a prep school in Maine. And while I was there, I got involved in a show called ‘American Spirit’, where we used to go up and down the East Coast all the time. Again, it was a nice experience to learn and so forth.«

RBMA: »You said show? What type of show? You know, was it a traveling review or something?«

Tony Dawsey: »Yes, it was a musical revival. We did song and dance and were driving up the East Coast during the summers and even throughout the year. So, that was just another bit of exposure to the music business. And again, I didn’t think to be involved into what I did until I’d set out to do so. Leaving that school, I wanted to be a photographer. That’s what I wanted to do. But all stages of my life I felt like, it helped lead me to where I’m at now. Whether we’re talking about my mother leaving the radio on at night, me buying records as a young man with the group of guys I hung out with and then being involved in that show. When I got a job at Masterdisk, it was just to support me through photography school. And back then in New York, the club scene was really happenin’ and poppin’. I spent a lot of time at clubs dancing and having fun and doing things that a 18-year old person did.«

RBMA: »What places did you go out to back then?«

Leroy Burgess: »Oh boy! There was a whole lot of clubs. You know, some people call ‘em ‘discos’ – I hate that name. We just called them clubs. A place where people meet to go and dance and have fun. It was all kinds of. It was Paradise Garage, Justine’s, Neil Gwinn. Just a tremendous amount of clubs and a big party scene in New York. It’s not quite like that anymore. But I think, all that stuff contributed to me knowing what sounded good, and then, as I started at Masterdisk and I got involved in this, I was trained by some very good individuals: Bob Ludwig, Bill Tipper, Alan Moy. I just thought of it as a plus: “I can do this!” The more I learned and everything, I was like: “I can do this because I know what sounds good.” You know, it was just a matter of learning the equipment and perfecting my craft so to speak.«

RBMA: »Do you remember what the first record was you worked on?«

Tony Dawsey: »Now, I really don’t remember. Because what happened back then is: people who had a preference would call up and choose to work with one of several different engineers. And we had something called ‘C.O.D. clients’. That were people who came in off the street and just wanted their record mastered. They didn’t care who did it, really. And that’s what I did. I started out doing those kind of records all the time. Before I progressed into making a name for myself and having a clientele.«

RBMA: »So that would be any genre pretty much? Whatever the person wanted?«

Tony Dawsey: »All types of music, all types and everything.«

RBMA: »Well then, I guess, you know, walk us through the process. Has it changed? How much has it changed from back then to now? Is the fundamental concept more or less the same?«

Tony Dawsey: »Technology I would say more than anything has. Technology just doesn’t stand still. When I first started in the '80s at Masterdisk, probably 90% of the music came in on quarter-inch tape. Either 15 ips or 30 ips. For those of you who don’t know, ips stands for ‘inches per second’. From there, years later, it became half-inch. Half-inch tape. After half-inch tape, the digital game came about. It was F-1 Beta and VHS tapes. Form there, we got involved to open reel digital and years later the CD came into play. So, it has changed quite a bit since the 1980s and now you have all kinds of digital computers into play. People are recording and mixing their music into that.«

RBMA: »So, the technology has obviously changed a lot. But as far as your approach to what you do, has that changed at all from back then?«

Tony Dawsey: »Not at all. As I said earlier, I feel mastering is icing on the cake. When I get a project in from anybody, I take what you give me and I will just try and make it a little better, if there is room to do so.«

RBMA: »So what constitutes ‘good sound’ or a ‘good sounding record’ in your estimation?«

Tony Dawsey: »I think it’s important for everything to be clean. Bass-wise, I like my bass tight, punchy - not muddy and tubby so to speak. I like my top end open and airy. And the mid range nice and crisp also. The truth is: not all records are created equal. Some sound better than others. That’s for sure. And some of the worst things an engineer can go through, is somebody who comes in with a tape that doesn’t sound very good and then tell you to make it sound like one of the better sounding records that are on the market.«

RBMA: »What are some of the things people are coming and tell you?«

Tony Dawsey: »”Make it sound like a Dr. Dre record!” “Make It sound like a Jay-Z record,” or something like that. And it’s not easy. It’s not easy at all.«

RBMA: »Would you say, you can’t polish...«

Tony Dawsey: »Yeah, I have a little saying to myself: “You can’t polish a turd.” If it doesn’t come in sounding like something in the ball park, you ain’t going to get it. It doesn’t work like that.«

RBMA: »You want to play anything as far citing an example? You know we can describe sound but playing it will make things a little more clearly.«

Tony Dawsey: »If people would have asked me, which format I like to master from, I still really prefer half-inch 30 ips. It’s just very dynamic, it’s very open and I just love it. I know in this digital age, it’s not always cost-sufficient to do that. A lot of people are coming in with DATs and CDs and computer files because it’s simple, it’s cheap. But my best sounding records, I feel, are still done on half-inch. There is a new technology out that is very, very expensive and people aren’t using it because of that. That’s a one-inch tape. I was lucky enough to work on Kelly Price's last album and it was the first record I did that was mastered off a one-inch tape. Very incredible. Incredibly dynamic, incredibly clean. I didn’t have to EQ that record much at all somehow, which I find amazing. I have a couple of little things here I want to play you, just to let you know, what I feel is something that is very dynamic. I have a Jay-Z record here. It was mastered off a half-inch, 30 ips, no noise-reduction tape. I just play a piece of a few cuts for you, just to let you see, how dynamic it is.«

(music: Jay-Z - unknown title)

»I love bass, I love it! Sorry, I can’t help it. You see me nodding and that’s what I do throughout the session. No matter if it’s jazz, r 'n' b, whatever, just slap me some bass. And that is how I like my bass to sound: just like that.«

RBMA: »What else do you want to say about that particular track?«

Tony Dawsey: »What I like about that stuff, is the dynamic range. You have a very, very low optical bass and you still have a lot of top end in there too. And that is to me a good recording, mixing and mastering job.«

RBMA: »That was all brought in though, already sounding decent to you. So, it’s really only what you said, sort of maximizing what is already there. Do you want to play anything else off of this?«

(music: Jay-Z - Excuse Me Miss)

RBMA: »Now, you just played a Neptunes track and a part of a Kanye track. So, I guess what are the different challenges involved in dealing with sort of different styles like that?«

Tony Dawsey: »Well, back in the day, back in the early '80s and so forth and you go through up the '90s, let’s say you have an album coming up on half-inch tape; it was normally done with one engineer and one studio and perhaps with one producer. So, it was very, very consistent all across the board. These days, you can have an album that is 15 tracks and you could have seven different producers and it could be done in ten different studios across the country. That makes it a little bit more challenging to get it very consistent across the board. As I said before, all mixes are not created equal. So that seems to be the biggest challenge these days to master engineers, is to try to get a project a bit consistent from track to track.«

RBMA: »What’s the most severe sort of example of there being like disparate sounds on one record that you can maybe remember?«

Tony Dawsey: »In addition to some engineers are better than others, some studios are better than others. So, you may be only boosting one track with a couple of db at top end, and in the next track you may have to boost it 4 db to keep it in synch with the other one. So, it’s a lot more challenging for sure. And I definitely think, music was a lot more consistent when you had one studio, one format and one engineer so to speak.«

RBMA: »In the hip hop era that is a concern. With a lot of hip hop albums you do have that example, but with live instrumentation is that also as severe or sort of an issue to deal with?«

Tony Dawsey: »Yeah, because you run into a problem where people ask you: “How come this track doesn’t sound as good as that?” You know? Well, that track isn’t mixed as well as this track. This track was not mixed at the same studio as that one. Sometimes people don’t understand that. A&R people, record company people – they don’t understand that stuff. And it’s your job to make it happen. To do what the hell you got to do to get it a little more consistent.«

RBMA: »So, how is the person, you know, that come in and you would work with? It’s not always a producer or artist? Who is the person?«

Tony Dawsey: »It’s one of four persons, not all of them. You normally have somebody from the record company come in. Sometimes, one of the engineers of the project comes in, just to make sure that his stuff is right. Sometimes the artist comes in or a producer come in, so you have a wide range of different people. Sometimes you have a room with ten different people in there.«

RBMA: »I’m sure you love that when there is ten different people there (laughter)?«

Tony Dawsey: »Well, it’s not easy because everybody wants their stuff sounding right. It’s OK. That’s what we all have in common, but it’s difficult sometimes. If you thinking about trying to please ten different people and all, it’s just sometimes impossible. You get nine people happy about the way the track sounds and you get this one person saying that they want the bell to be louder or something like that. It’s a little crazy at times, but it’s part of what you do and you got to make the best of it.«

RBMA: »Who’s been most hands-on from your experience? As far as producers or whoever you work with are concerned?«

Tony Dawsey: »Wow, it’s funny. I can probably name quite a few of them, but I know guys like DJ Premier. He is there from the start of the session to the end. And he is very much hands-on, involved in everything that you’re doing, turn you to do this or that, making suggestions. Reggie Noble is another one. When Premier and Noble are coming in, I know that I’m going to be there until five or six in the morning. I’m mastering records, and Reggie is: “I’m running down the street real quick and getting a sound effect for my skit,” or something.«

RBMA: »Reggie Noble known to the public as....«

Tony Dawsey: »Redman.«

RBMA: »What are some of the other things they are going to say to you? Is there a consistent thing? Do you know when these guys come in that: "I have to do it a certain way"?«

Tony Dawsey: »Definitely so with hip hop more so than other things. They want that bass banging. They want it tight, they want it loud, they want it punchy. You heard some of the Jay-Z I had been playing. Let me just play this for an example of something that doesn’t sound as good. And it’s no diss to this person, but…«

(music: Jay-Z - unknown)

»See how this bass is nice and tight and also big sounding, so to speak? Now I’m going to play something for you and this was a very big record. It didn’t come in sounding good and it doesn’t sound good. So, you got a little vibe and taste of Jay-Z and how I like records to sound. I’m going to play a record that sold about 12 million copies in the United States. It didn’t come in sounding good and you’re going to see the difference. There is no diss to this person. If they find out about this, they’re probably never going to work with me again, and this record was a very big record, like I said. It sold 12 million copies and so forth, but if you listen to what the music sounds like, you won’t get the same vibe you just got from the Jay-Z record.«

(music: Kid Rock - Devil Without A Cause)

»See how this bass isn’t tight and punchy like it was in the Jay-Z record? Perhaps it was done like that on purpose and, like I said, this record sold 12 million copies. It didn’t come in sounding very good, I’m just being honest. There is so many people that come to work with me because they say they like the way the bass sounds on most of my records. And that was the case with this record too. It’s just not punchy, it’s not tight, no matter what I did, it didn’t get there. I don’t mean that as a diss now.«

RBMA: »So, how long did you go at it then to try to get it to a place where you could be satisfied?«

Tony Dawsey: »I’d say, I normally can EQ a track where I am happy and the people in the room are happy. I ‘d listen to it two or three times or something like that and in the course of that, I EQ a record and get it sounding good; this took a little bit longer. It was a longer session, it took a lot more time.«

RBMA: »So after the session - you have your standard – it obviously came out and it didn’t bother 12 million record perpetrators. What did the clients say? Were they cool with it?«

Tony Dawsey: »They were happy with it. I mean, when I EQ something in my room, I play it beforehand and then I play it with the EQ. So, right then and there, Andy Karp came in on this, he is the A&R guy on Lava Records. Like I’d said, I’d play the record flat and with the output on the console with the EQ so you hear the difference right then and there. And they were very happy with this record. I mean, I saw him not very long ago and he was talkin’: “This is the guy who put the bass on our record,” and so on (laughter ). It wasn’t quite the way I would have loved it to sound. Of course, things aren’t created equal. I don’t try to master every record to sound like a Jay-Z record.«

RBMA: »I know that the rapping is a little bit better on the Jay-Z album too (laughter).«

Tony Dawsey: »You didn’t hear me say that.«

RBMA: »Why couldn’t you help that aspect of this record?«

Tony Dawsey: »Nah, I don’t get that involved so to speak with the people (laughs).«

RBMA: »As far as the hip hop thing goes, being a professional in this industry, let me ask you this first: your career predates hip hop somewhat as far being what it is now. Did you bring something different to the table or have to hear things with a different ear to work on hip hop records as opposed to other genres?«

Tony Dawsey: »It’s kind of funny. Back in the '80s when I started equalizing records or mastering records and so forth, I was doing a lot of rock ’n' roll. Then there was a time, where I was doing a lot of heavy metal and there was a point where I was doing a lot of jazz. And then, what happens as you get your name on a few records that sell a lot of copies, everybody wants to be a part of that. Back in 1987, I had my first number one album that was the La Bamba soundtrack (laughter). You know, something totally different. Years after that, I was starting doing the Das EFX, the Redman’s, stuff like that. And, of course, a lot of those records sold very well and all, people were just gravitated to you and wanted to be a part of that. The thing most engineers hate about it is that you get kind of categorized and put into that mode. I like all types of music, to be honest with you. Most of you will probably be surprised to know that when I’m at home, relaxed and chillin’, I listen to a group called Fourplay. I love their music, all their albums. My daughter is constantly saying to me: “Dad, all you listen to is Fourplay.” I said: “Baby, they got eight albums. That is a lot of music to listen to.” (laughter) And I love that type of stuff. The music I’m listening to is really a reflection of my mood. I can go and listen from a Fourplay album to Yes, a little Dr. Dre or whatever. It depends on my mood, really.«

RBMA: »But as far as the standards for hip hop sounds, is it different? Do you bring something different to it as when your working in another genre or are you approaching it the exact same way?«

Tony Dawsey: »I don’t approach music any different, I really don’t, regardless of what type it is. I just take what people give me. Out of the recording, out of the mixing session, I just want to try and make it sound a little better. I’ve been doing this for a long time so I bring a certain amount of experience to the table. Instantly, when I go and play something back in my room, I go: “Uh, it needs a little boost on the top end,” and I start working on that. Or if I notice that the bass needs a bit boost, I immediately attack that. But I don’t have a different approach from one type of music to another. I really don’t, you know?«

RBMA: »Yeah, you said not all records are created equal. I know that some producers in hip hop are particularly known to have a grimy sound. Somebody like Wu-Tang, the RZA being one of those people. Have you had any experiences working with him?«

Tony Dawsey: »I had done some of the early records there with him. And you’re absolutely right, there is a griminess that he has.«

RBMA: »Because if you play these records in a club, there is going to be an obvious sonic difference playing these records.«

Tony Dawsey: »Definitely, you are right. I don’t know, if it’s done on purpose or it’s just the engineer/equipment that is being used. But the records form the Wu-Tang Clan are definitely a bit grimy. It’s not that nice, tight, punchy bass that I love so much. A lot of people feel that’s his sound, that’s his style. I can’t tell you, if it’s done on purpose, I’m not sure it is. It’s just the way it turns out, I think. Same thing as you just heard with the Kid Rock record versus the Jay-Z. I think everybody wants to sound their record as good as possible. Nice, tight, punchy bass, nice open top end and some crispy mid’s, but it doesn’t always happen that way, unfortunately.«

RBMA: »I know from working with rap people that there is definitely different challenges as far as the etiquette goes sometimes. Can you probably elaborate on a few examples? You don’t have to name names, but particular examples, particular egregious when you came in thinking, ‘I’m a professional and prepared’, and it didn’t turn out that way?«

Tony Dawsey: »(laughs) I think the first thing that is obvious when dealing with – and I guess this happens more so with hip hop than it does with other music – is just people being on time. Normally, I start my day at 11 or 12 o’clock. And quite a few people would show up at three or four o’clock. It’s kind of rough in terms of having a life and planning things afterwards. In this business, you just can’t do that. Like I said, my day starts at between 11 and 12 o’clock and, if I’m lucky, it ends at between eight and ten o’clock. But many a instance, it ends at three, four, five o’clock in the morning. I can remember in the early days working with DJ Premier and maybe having something to do after work and trying to kind of rush a little bit, it didn’t work out. The more I rushed him, the more he went off to play some pool or he made phone calls, so I learned not to make plans after work and just taking a song at a time, you know?«

RBMA: »Were there any other people that were particularly memorable as far as like being in the studio? Did Jay-Z ever show up to his mastering sessions? I mean, are they following through as artists? Are they that far into the process or are they pretty much delegating the responsibility at that point?«

Tony Dawsey: »It really depends on the individual. I think I worked on the last five Jay-Z records. First time I met him was when I was working on the first DMX album. He came in just to say ‘hi’ and showed a little support. Out of the five albums I have done on his, he came in on the last one, the one which he was supposed to be retiring from the business. He came in to make sure, I guess, that things were OK.«

RBMA: »It was a good thing he showed before he retired. Otherwise you might have never seen him again, right?«

Tony Dawsey: »(laughs) Exactly. Other than that, they normally depend on somebody to get the job done. Whether it’s an A&R person, an engineer or one of the producers and so forth. But it’s different with everybody. Sometimes the artists will come in themselves to oversee the project, but you can always depend on a record company person being there. Almost always.«

RBMA: »Is that a good thing? Or is that a bad thing?«

Tony Dawsey: »No, I don’t mind working with people at all, I really don’t. It’s a very creative atmosphere and I don’t have a problem with that. But I have a very nice room. You can check it out on the website, it’s very comfortable. Masterdisk, we feed our clientele, we have a pool table, congress room table, a computer. We just try to make it very comfortable for the people. And I’m a very easy going guy, all I want to do is to make your record sound the best way it possibly can.«

RBMA: »Now, as far as the length of a session goes or the time, you said yesterday you have some specific preferences that probably make a lot of sense as far as when you start at 11 or 12, you don’t want to be doing, what you’re doing. Can you elaborate a little bit about that?«

Tony Dawsey: »I definitely won’t be mastering your record at four o’clock in the morning. I’m a human being and human beings get tired. It’s that simple. I know a lot of guys that mix and record a lot of time put under the gun and you being in the studio to 12, 14, 16 hours to get the job done. Those mixes don’t turn out to be very good. So, you guys out here who are planning on mixing and recording, try not to do that. ‘Cause what happens as human beings is that the top ends disappear. So what do you do? You turn it up some, and the next day when you get back to the project, you wonder how it is so bright. So, if possible, I say stay away from the four o’clock, five o’clock in the morning crap. And find out within yourself, if eight hours is enough for you, if ten hours is enough, before you get a little burn out. I know, it’s easy for me to tell you this and to say that, but a lot of times you’re under the gun. Record companies putting pressure on you to: "Get it done, to get it done. This record has to be put in tomorrow at 12 noon." So, you end up doing what you have to do. But I can’t say most of the time those mixes turn out very well.«

RBMA: »If you’re put in a situation like that, what do you do to keep your ears fresh?«

Tony Dawsey: »I drink a lot of water. I may walk away and take a break here and there. And I definitely don’t monitor very loudly. A lot of people feel like they have to turn it up crazy loud. To me, this is just testing out the speakers and the amplifiers and making yourself a little bit tired. We’re human beings, we’re not machines. A machine can go on all day and all night, but we are human and we can’t do that. But most of the time, the last few hours of a session, you’re putting a record together and you make the copy. Even if I’m in the studio with Redman or DJ Premier to six in the morning, the last few hours are in fact, like I said, putting the record together and making the copies of it. Back in the day, when I told you about a project coming in on a half-inch or quarter-inch reel or tape, and being from one studio and one engineer, we used to be able to master an album in four hours. Back in the day. These days, it’s not the case. It used to be anywhere from eight to twelve cuts on an album. These days it could be up to 20 cuts and so forth on the album. Therefore albums tend to go on from eight hours on up and so forth. It definitely has changed in the game in that regard. Like I said, the fact that you get tapes coming in from studios all across the land, with different producers and all that, makes the sessions go a lot longer also.«

RBMA: »You are raising your hand urgently…«

Participant: »Can you give an example of how loud you monitor? Play sound and say like this…?«

Tony Dawsey: »It’s a kind of a different set-up in here, but back in my studio I have three different types of speakers. I have some nice Genelec’s sitting on the console right there, couple of feet from me. I have a big system in the back of the room and I have some nice great KRK monitors, which are nice for people sitting on the couch. Now, during the course of a session, I bounce around to all three of those. Certain people come in and they just turn up the music. I have to accept that. Like DJ Premier always turns it all the way up. That’s what he does. There is nothing that I can do about that. But as I EQ, I just play it on the normal listening level. Like I said, the speaker set-up here is different than in my room.«

(music: Kid Rock - Devil Without A Cause)

»That’s a level for that is fine. And there is a trick I have too that I can let you guys now. Sometimes people come in wondering if the vocals are loud enough. I have a little trick I do. It’s no secret. I think it’s what a lot of people do as I have been told. We turn the music down quite low.«

(turns the music down)

»And even at this level you should understand what the artist is saying. So, at this level even, I’m able to judge if the vocals are loud enough. The music shouldn’t overpower. You should be able to understand very clearly what’s being said and so forth.«

Participant: »I was wondering when you get a finished version, where the vocals aren’t loud enough, are you requesting a version where the vocals are louder or will you just EQ it a little bit different? «

Tony Dawsey: »The thing with mastering is that even if we are able to boost a lot of things in the mid’s, to end and the bass, vocal is somewhat a real sticky area. If, let’s say the vocal level is 2db lower than what it should be, I cannot make up that 2db level EQ-wise. A good engineer has covered his ass, so to speak. On the master tape that they give you, they have a vocal up version, normally about one db. It would be even smarter to have a couple of version on the tape. It takes a lot less time to bring a vocal up 1 db or to bring a vocal up 2 db as it would for you to go back in and redo that. So, if time permits it, I would definitely suggest that you do it like that. Just have your one vocal level, but then go and put it up 1 db or 2 just to cover yourself.«

RBMA: »So you were saying early that people are not going to Masterdisk or any of those mastering houses, but are trying to go the cheap way or use technologies that afford cheap things. What are the draw backs of people doing that?«

Tony Dawsey: »I’d say about 95% of the music I work on, I use an analogue console. I have an old Neumann analogue console with a lot of different equalizers and compressors. A lot of people these days are mastering their records in the ProTools machine that has a mastering menu. And it’s not the same. I have done some tests. I remember engineer Richard Keller came in with the DMX album and we mastered on my console first or through my console. Then we went back and mastered in the ProTools machine. It’s just the warmth of my analogue console that you can’t get off of that ProTools machine or those computers that people have these days. I don’t know what to tell you about that. I think, it’s still something kind of new, I guess. The whole ProTools mastering thing. That machine is pretty incredible. It helped to close down a lot of studios throughout the land unfortunately. Because for 10 or 20 grand, you can buy that machine and have your mixing console, your recording and everything just there. Unfortunately, a lot of good studios in New York, as well as California and probably in between are closing down because of that machine. The mastering menu, I feel, still has still a way to go before it achieves what most of us are able to do at our console. I don’t know, I recently had some people calling me and telling me that they want to open up a mastering studio using a ProTools rig, but the guy said, I think he was an engineer: “I can’t understand why I can’t get it to sound as good as some of your records?” And I was like: “Hmmm, that’s why I get the big bucks, you know?” (laughter) I’m not saying that you have to spend a lot of money to get your record mastered right, but there’s a level of difference, you know? I’ve been doing this for 20-something years. The ProTools rig has not been around that long. So, I’d say no matter what your choosing to do, whether it’s recording, mixing or mastering, I think, it’s very important for you to spend the time to perfect your craft. You’re not going to be good overnight. We all have that ego to some degree and all that, but it takes time. It takes time to be very, very good in what you do. So, I say, do your homework and take your time to get to that level of excellence no matter what you choose to do.«

RBMA: »Do you think that inevitably these technologies can improve where they can give you that kind of warmth, the ProTools technology?«

Tony Dawsey: »I wouldn’t be surprised that it would. Something I realized in the years I’ve been doing, is that technology just doesn’t stop. On the consumer end as well as on the professional end. They are always coming out with something at the consumer end to get your money. I can remember, what was it? Vinyl and cassettes. And then in ’83 I bought my first CD player. After that I remember the minidisc came, digital compact cassette, just all kinds of stuff. At the consumer end they always try something to get your money. Now you have high-definition CDs and everything else. On the professional end, if you pick up Mix Magazine from month to month, I feel sorry for studio owners because there is always another pair of speakers, there is always another amplifier, another mic or something that they are trying to sell you to make the whole recording process better. I think in years to come, the ProTools rig has come a long way. From when they first came out, we had a choice to choose that machine, but we choose Sonic Solutions, we use it as a harddisk editing system. George Lucas of Star Wars fame invented it for video. We use it for music. That hasn’t kept up with technology. The ProTools rig has surpassed that and so I wouldn’t be surprised, if in years to come, the software gets better and that machine will perhaps take over some of the mastering studios.«

RBMA: »How does that make you feel on a personal level then as a direct thread to what you do?«

Tony Dawsey: »Well, like I said, I can’t stop technology and I know one day I won’t be mastering records anymore. I don’t have a problem with that. But I’m going to do it as long as I can and you kind of get what you pay for. I mean, yes, you can buy a Volkswagen and you can buy a Mercedes. They are both cars, but are they both the same? No, no. That’s the truth. Just like that person who called up asking: “I have a ProTools rig, I want to do mastering. Why can’t I make my records sound as good as yours?” There is a difference. Its definitely a difference. I still love my analogue console, I’m not going to invest time into mastering off the ProTools rig. At this point at least, I’m not.«


RBMA: »You talked a little bit about fatigue, ear fatigue, do you do anything specifically to keep your ears [protected] besides when you’re in the studio? Do you listen to music a lot in your spare time?«

Tony Dawsey: »In some ways I miss that. I think growing up as a young man, as a teenager, I think I listened and enjoyed music a lot more, now it’s what I do for a living. I may turn on the radio on the hour drive in to work and the hour drive home but I don’t listen to music in my spare time as much as I used to. And I miss that sometimes, I miss that. But sometimes I just need a little break, I guess. I’m not one to play music loud all the time, I just play it at an easy listening level and I think that makes a big difference. Not to say I don’t listen to music loud because sometimes you’ll see this crazy guy driving down the highway nodding his head to some jam that he’s crazy about so I can crank it up at times. But definitely, if I go to concerts and to a club or something, I tend to stay away from the speakers because they definitely turn them up loud there. So I’ll back off from that not to damage my ears so to speak.«

RBMA: »You said to me you try not to listen with a critical ear as far as aesthetics go, but there must be times when you’re sitting there working on something and you just can’t stand the song or can’t stand the artist. And it’s got to be a challenge to try to overcome that to make it sound as good as you can.«

Tony Dawsey: »Well, I think you got to be professional, you got to be professional, whether umm… I think you get a point or two for bringing a record and me mastering it. So right off the bat I like it because of that. I can’t say I listen to a lot of offensive stuff, although I have a 12-year old daughter and sometimes dealing with some of the rap stuff more than anything you get a little tired of hearing the 'bitches, hoe’s, ass, fuck, shit, nigger' and all that stuff all the time, it gets a little monotonous. But you know our country has something called free speech so you got to deal with it. I think regardless of what I get, you just have to be professional. Years ago when I used to do heavy metal; that’s not my choice of music, I’m not going to listen to that when I’m home relaxing but you got to be professional about it, you know?«

RBMA: »There’s always the visual stereotype of the engineer being the white guy with the ponytail and facial hair. So is that a true stereotype from your experience or is it fiction, do you feel like you’ve broken some boundaries for the time you were working at Masterdisk?«

Tony Dawsey: »Probably not, I still get a lot of people coming in going: “You’re black!” I’ve been on MTV, people are surprised. I don’t know why, we have a website, my picture’s on there, I’ve been on MTV talking about music before, what was it? The 22 greatest albums a panel voted in on and I was on there talking about a Nine Inch Nails record. But other people are surprised and there [are] only two African American engineers that I feel make an impact in the music business, that’s myself and Herb Powers. So I guess it’s not normal for a black engineer to be mastering records. Hopefully in the years to come that’ll change and so forth.«

RBMA: »Describe Herb Powers and what his importance is because if anybody here buys any dance records – 12”s from the early '80s - this guys name is pretty much on everything significant. If you could talk a little bit about his impact too?«

Tony Dawsey: »I consider him a friend. Many years ago when I was delivering packages throughout the different recording studios in New York, I ran into him in a control room, the mastering suite at Frankford Wayne and I was like: “Wow!” It kind of inspired me to go forth and do what I do now because I just felt like there is a brother doing this, so it is feasible, it is possible. When I first started at Masterdisk, again, I had no aspiration to do mastering at all but I do remember seeing Herb in there and it was definitely a bit of an inspiration to go forth and perhaps take advantage of the situation that was given to me. I have seen quite a [lot of] difference in the business where there are a lot more black mixing and recording engineers than what there used to be when I first started. Like you said, it used to be the ponytail with the grub on the face and that’s not true any more. The beautiful thing I feel about music, and you’ve heard people say this before and it may be a cliché, but music is a universal language. I really, really feel that way. You don’t listen to music and go: “It’s a black thing, a white thing, an Asian thing or anything else.” Music just speaks to all of us, all across the board, all parts of the country, that’s the thing I love about it so much. It’s a little different than when I was growing up. [When you were] growing up, if you had a relationship with your girlfriend, there was a record that spoke to you about it, that you could relate to. And there are still records now that impact and affect people like that. Whether you’re going through something with your boyfriend/girlfriend or just something in life and that’s why I just love music so much and I always have, it touches you, it reaches down to your soul.«

Participant: »You said before that you had your first hit record with the La Bamba soundtrack, which was actually a compilation, Los Lobos, etc. So how do you approach mastering a compilation, which is not just different studios, but also different artists and different sounds?«

RBMA: »Different genres maybe?«

Tony Dawsey: »Again, that was in the '80s, and if I remember right – it was a long time ago – it all came in from one source, from one studio. Yeah, there [are] different artists on each track but I don’t have a different approach from cut to cut. I feel a large percentage…«

Participant: »You have to create a homogenous sound but at the same time respect the individuality of the single artists?«

Tony Dawsey: »That’s correct. But again, like I say, I think a large portion of what I do is already done in the actual recording and the actual mixing. So most of the work is done and I’m just there – as I’ve been saying – putting the icing on the cake, trying to keep it as consistent as possible but in listening to it, do what I feel needs to be done whether that’s boosting the top, the bass or whatever. It’s not easy these days ‘cause, like I said, you get a project with 20 cuts done in ten different studios with different producers, but it’s what I do and I just have to try and keep it as consistent as possible across the board. And it’s not easy, it’s probably a lot easier to say that than to do it.«

RBMA: »Did you ever have any ambitions to do recording engineering or producing yourself?«

Tony Dawsey: »Sometimes I wish I got involved in mixing because I’ve hung out in different studios watching records being put together and that to me is… It’s crazy, crazy… It’s what’s the word I’m looking for? It’s really creative at that point, I mean here you are and you’re combining the 24 or 48 tracks onto a left or right channel and that’s very, very creative to me. Like I said, when I get it, two thirds of it is already done, I’m just putting a little glaze of icing on it and all. But sometimes I did wish I did mix some, I really do ‘cause I think it’s just a lot more creative than what I do. As far as producing and all that stuff, I think I’m starting to get a little too old to want to venture into all that stuff now. And I thought about it even in the mixing sense, I would end up not being home and I have a wife and a daughter, you know I already work ten or more hours a day. I try not to work the weekends, but if I got involved in mixing, I’m sure I would never be home. And then I would end up perhaps ruffling a few feathers off people I work with.«

RBMA: »What about the whole concept of re-mastering, what is your experience of that and I mean sometimes you hear a re-issue of a classic album and they say: “Re-Mastered, blah, blah, blah.” Sometimes there’s a difference and sometimes it sounds negligible. What is your experience with that?«

Tony Dawsey: »Well, I think again, technology comes into play. I think records these days are crazy, crazy loud, much louder than they were in the '80s. Some of that is because of different type of equipment that is available to you and everything else. And I think that’s some of why a lot of companies re-issue and remaster stuff that was done back in the '60s, '70s or '80s, just to bring it up to sync with what today’s sound is like. I don’t really like the loudness that people put on records these days, I think that a lot of [the] time it destroys the dynamic of the record. If I played a jazz record for you that I mastered, I will never make that record as loud as I do perhaps a Hip Hop record. A lot of the Hip Hop guys they want their record sounding louder than the next and the next and the next on down the line. But to me you lose a bit of the dynamic [in] your music by doing that. I do what I have to do, if that’s what the client wants, then that’s what they want. But you just lose it. If I play you some jazz stuff that I’ve done recently, you’ll find it very open, very dynamic and very pleasing but when you squash a record to make it sound loud, I think you just mess up on stuff. It just loses that and a lot of people feel that way but you get caught up on doing what the client wants and just making them happy.«

RBMA: »Have you heard any of the Hip Hop records from ten years ago like Illmatic [by Nas] that have supposedly been remastered. Have you heard any of that stuff or ever compared…?«

Tony Dawsey: »No, I can’t say I do. To me that’s kind of work and when I’m listening to music in my car or at home, I try my best not to be critical or judgmental about it. I just play it and I either enjoy it and like the vibe or I don’t. ‘Cause that’s how I started with this, I didn’t start out listening to music going: “Ooh, it doesn’t sound good,” or: “Ooh, it needs more top end,” or whatever. So when I’m home on my own, I try my best not to do that. I can’t say I bought any re-issues of stuff that’s been remastered, I can’t say that at all.«

RBMA: »Why don’t you play something, another example, maybe one of your Jazz pieces to give us another audio example of what you’re talking about?«

Tony Dawsey: »OK, before I do that, what I would love to play for you guys is: you’ve heard I played some Jay-Z’s Dynasty album, I played some of Kid Rock’s. Both of those records were mixed down to half inch thirty ips and again I love that format. If you ask me what I prefer to master from, that’s what it is. I want to play something for you that uses this new technology. I’m not sure of the gentleman’s name but somebody invented a one-inch machine… It went from quarter inch back in the '80s and then in the late '80s [and] '90s it went up to half inch. Now there’s a machine that’s out where you can mix down to one inch and that’s just an incredible format. I was very lucky to work on Kelly Price's last album and it was mixed down on one inch tape. It was one of the few records I’ve dealt with where I didn’t have to do a lot of EQ. It was that dynamic.«

(music: Kelly Price - unknown)

»Again you see how low, how real, real low the octave of bass you get down there, it’s just incredible and I’m sorry but you don’t get that off a digital source at least not normally, you really don’t. That comes straight up from an analogue tape, half inch or one inch more so.«

Participant: »What would be your suggestions for mastering with a low budget ‘cause I don’t have a lot of money and I’ve done the going to a local engineer who’s dumping it into ProTools and bumping it out and I’m happy with it when it’s on CD. But when I get my vinyl back, it just doesn’t sound right and I just know that [I can’t keep going like that]. But I’m not Jay-Z, I don’t have Roc-A-Fella money so comin’ in, doin’ a session with you isn’t going to be feasible financially, but I don’t know if I’m going to get the same kind of treatment if I just come in off the street. You get the intern to master. Because I want someone to be like: “Yo, your mix isn’t right, take it back, have your engineer re-mix it and then bring it back to mastering.” I don’t want to get the best you could do with the bad mix. So what would be your advice for someone like me, indie label, third release we’re getting ready to do, don’t have a lot of money? How can we get the best mastering because I feel like the mastering is the icing on the cake, but it’s also the difference between: “This record’s cool,” or: “This record bumps in the club, I’m gonna play it”? I can play it next to a Jay-Z record and not have to bump the gain up, bump the treble up, bump everything up, it’s like official. So what would be your advice for that?«

Tony Dawsey: »I know these days more so than ever, there’s an issue, people just don’t have a lot of money, like you said. I know some of the people I work with there is no budget, they’ll spend anything from one or two days just mastering the record.«

RBMA: »It’s an unlimited budget for that, you mean?«

Tony Dawsey: »Definitely. They may complain about the bill afterwards, but hey, that’s the amount of time you were in there for. I still feel each of the steps are very important. I still think you need to mix it as best you can, I still think you need to mix it as best you can, record it as best you can and then also to have it mastered. There are a lot of good mastering engineers out there, I can’t speak on everybody’s rates. But if you wanted to work with someone such as myself, I’d say just explain what you said to me when you book the session and let them know. You don’t necessarily have a lot of money and this is what you got, can you work with me? This year more than ever, we’ve been doing that a lot more. Up at Masterdisk, it’s $430 an hour to master an album with me and there was a time where people never asked for a break, they never did, they came in, six, eight, ten hours and that’s what it was. Now, we are catering more to the independent people because of how the music industry is changed and we are giving people a break.«

Participant: »So for a two song 12", how long would it take in your experience if the mix is right, the recording is right, come in and bang out two songs is it going to be an hour? Two hours?«

Tony Dawsey: »Two songs? I’m willing to bet I could have that mastered in an hour to have you walk away with something like a CD or DAT or something of that nature.«

Participant: »And the second part of my question is: going through the vinyl manufacturing process, a lot of times they’ll want to throw in extra mastering. Do you find that if your master is good, you don’t need anyone else to touch it whether it’s going to CD or vinyl or is there an extra step that’s specifically for vinyl?«

Tony Dawsey: »No, you’re right though, there are a lot of processing plants that throw in mastering as a way to entice you and a way to get you to bring in work. I, of course, still cut a lot of vinyl. I have the cutting lathe still in my room, I’m one of the few [mastering] engineers that have that. But it gets a little sticky at times because budget comes in to play a whole lot and sometimes you just don’t have the money to have engineer ‘A’ cut the vinyl on that. But you have to be very careful with that because what a lot of these companies do, is they just broker the work off to somebody else. They’re like the middleman and you don’t need that.«

RBMA: »So they won’t even have the person you think is doing it do it?«

Tony Dawsey: »No, not necessarily. They have something set up at one of the many mastering facilities throughout the land and they give them your CD or DAT and they hopefully transfer it flat. A lot of times they don’t believe it or not so they can charge you something and have them cut your vinyl. It’s a very sticky situation. It really is, because I think if you going to have a certain person that you want to master your record, then you should have them cut the vinyl too. And again, explain what you just said to me and hopefully they can work out and give you a deal. Because sometimes what happens with people is I won’t cut the vinyl, they’ll broker it off with somebody else and then wonder why it doesn’t sound right. Just as I talked a lot about the half inch analogue tape machine and how the key to that sounding really good is to have it aligned and taken care of, the same thing is true with cutting a piece of vinyl. There’s a high frequency alignment, there’s a total alignment that needs to be done on those machines, and if it’s not done right, then there’s no telling how your stuff is going to turn out. Who they use – and you have every right to ask them – who are you using to cut the vinyl and everything else? That’s important for sure. A lot of studios, not just Masterdisk in New York, but a lot of studios are offering breaks to people these days, you’d be surprised. So like I said, just call up a place and explain your situation and if you have a list of engineers, mastering guys that you want to do it, then you have every right spending your money to request engineer A,B,C or D. If somebody wants to work with me, I won’t pass it off on to somebody else, I’ll accommodate the client as best as I can. I don’t care who you are, from Jay-Z on down to the other guy because I didn’t start out up here, so I understand people starting there wanting to go up. And I’ll give you the same type of respect and care that I would for the big budget people, you know I think that’s fair, I really do.«

Participant: »Thank you very much. See you in New York!«

Tony Dawsey: »You’re welcome.«

Participant: »I was just wondering if you could run [through] some of the differences in mastering for vinyl. You don’t want the bass to be on one side and you’ve got phasing things with the bass. A lot of people don’t realise these differences, can you explain some of those things?«

Tony Dawsey: »Oh, yeah. I don’t necessarily change the EQ when I’m doing something for CD versus vinyl. What you’ll find is, let’s say you have five tracks from your album that you want to put on vinyl [and] let’s say the fifth track has a lot of high frequency stuff going on, a lot of cymbals and all that fun stuff. With vinyl you get into a problem with inner band distortion that doesn’t exist on a CD. On a CD you can make it crazy loud and all type of top end without there being a problem.«

RBMA: »Inner band distortion?«

Tony Dawsey: »Yeah, when it comes down to vinyl you have to deal with problems like that.«

RBMA: »In layman’s terms what would that be?«

Tony Dawsey: »It’s just that as you get towards the centre of the record, if you have something with a lot of top end, it could possibly distort on you at a very high level.«

RBMA: »So, if you’ve got three tracks on a 12", the one closest to the label [will distort on the top end]?«

Tony Dawsey: »It’s very possible. Another thing that people don’t understand with vinyl – I know a lot of you guys that are DJs – [is that] a good sounding piece of vinyl will be in the neighbourhood of 10 to 12 to 13 minutes. When you get up to 17 or 18 minutes, we have to drop the level. So when they happen to play your record that’s 18 minutes versus one that’s 12 minutes, the 12 minute one will probably sound a lot better. A lot of people don’t understand that, they ask why but it’s just physics, the longer the record is, the more room it takes up on a piece of vinyl.«

RBMA: »That’s why when you play your old vinyl copy of [Public Enemy’s] Fear Of A Black Planet it sounds really shitty.«

Tony Dawsey: »Yeah, chances are that was 20-something odd minutes. I don’t care who cut your piece of vinyl, there’s no way a 20 minute piece of vinyl is going to sound as good as a ten minute one, it just doesn’t work out that way. So if that’s an issue for you, then try to keep your vinyl to 10 or 12 minutes. If it’s 20 minutes, then understand that it’s not going to sound as good. Back in the day when CDs weren’t in play, we used to cut a lot of vinyl that was perhaps 19, 20 minutes. But we just let the people know that’s not going to sound as good as a 12” piece of vinyl. Nowadays to combat that, I’ll master an album that’s 60 minutes long and instead of cutting it up and making two pieces of vinyl, the record company makes four pieces of vinyl. So that way each piece of vinyl is 15 minutes long, which sounds a lot better than if it’s 20 or 30 minutes long.«

RBMA: »But then there’s a lot more expense in doing that as well, I would imagine.«

Tony Dawsey: »Yeah, that’s true it does cost more to do four pieces versus two and everything. But again, if sound quality is important to you, that’s just something you have to consider. And another thing: there are a lot of different things that sometimes engineers that don’t cut vinyl don’t understand. You talked about phasing. Bass phasing for vinyl cutting engineers is a real problem. A lot of times what happens with the machine that cuts the grooves when you have some phasing going on with the bass the grooves go deep thin deep thin (gesticulates with arms to indicate). And, if it thins up too much, then there’s a very good chance that record’s going to skip. So it’s very possible to maybe create two different mixes or not make the phasing crazy ‘cause on CD that stuff is not a problem, it’s not a problem at all. But when it comes to vinyl you get into cutting problems. Like I said, the groove going thick, thin, thick, thin. And sometimes I’ll get a project where that happens and I go: “Oh no, I’ve got to cut this on vinyl!” But it’s something you got to deal with and we got little tricks to get around that stuff sometimes.«

RBMA: »What about with what DJ was saying before about someone giving you an honest assessment of what you have. Maybe you bring your master in or your tape in and… You can only do so much in the mastering process, you actually have to go back and provide something else. You know, you’re in DC a lot of these guys are in other parts of the world where they’re not going to be able to come down to Masterdisk or call you on the phone, it’s going to be a pretty expensive call. So, what advice would you give them as a resource for that kind of feedback?«

Tony Dawsey: »Well, I’ll always try to be professional, I’ll never come out and tell anybody that their mix is a piece of shit, I don’t think that’s fair or right at all. But in this day and age, people love comparing their record to another record and a lot of times the other record tends to sound a whole lot better and they want their record to sound like that. Most of the time that’s not fair. Just as I said to you before, all cars are not created equal. Yes, a Volkswagen and a Mercedes are both cars but they’re not the same and it’s the same with mixes. The mastering can make a world of difference don’t get me wrong, it can make the difference of a record that perhaps will get played on the radio more so than one that won’t. But you’ve got to take each step of the process; the recording and the mixing and the mastering and try to get it the best you can. Don’t be an engineer that shortcuts it and says: “I know my mix ain’t good but we’ll fix it in the mastering.” That drives us crazy sometimes bec